Curse

Ensign · Nov 14, 2010, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It's a shame A.Net seemed to think that this was a good development.

Well, before the PvP and PvE developers had to agree to make an update, after the split they didn't. So now we get to see the results of each side doing whatever they wanted! Making the split removed a barrier keeping the game healthy. Removing it made it easier to make targeted changes (which can be good!) but also a lot easier to make bad changes (yeah...)

...yeah. So hopefully they've learned a bit for GW2.

In general the types of things causing the most problems in PvE were things causing lots of trouble in PvP, and were kept under control by the link. Sure, skills and archetypes have different high points in different environments, but the same themes are relevant everywhere. The difference is, in PvP, there's an emphasis to bring everything extreme back into line (and usually endless complaining about anything that beats an individual player's preconceived preferences); in PvE, there's just a rush to exploit an imbalance, and the people who chose poorly at character creation complain that they don't get their overpowered candy too.

...which is to say that there is a lot of self-serving complaining and demands for changes that would be bad for the game from players of all stripes, and that they need to be very critical of all feedback received.

Ensign · Nov 14, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

Ensign, could you do everyone a favor and pleasantly give us your thoughts on this update?

Thanks in advance.

I'm still figuring it out, which is a sign of a good update. It wasn't a very big update but it was targeted, and the effects of it haven't settled yet.

It's an iterative process, where people have to first figure out the micro implications (I.E., adjust their bars in reaction to the changes), which then have macro implications (Everyone changed their bars! We need to adjust!), which repeats itself. I haven't observed anyone even trying to play hexes and sins since the update (yes, hexes were nerfed, but hello, Healer's Boon / Heal Party is gone!), so there's no way to say whether the changes were effective or not.

My snap impressions so far:

The new Barbed Signet is awesome, and I don't know why they split it; not that I would run either version in PvE, but if I did I'd want the fun version.

I keep reflexively spearing off my Enraging Charge whenever I space out for a moment; that's going to be a hard habit to break. I don't think that's a bad change though. I'm on the fence about the scaling still. Capping it at 3 strikes helps break up some of the KD chains Hammer Warriors were putting out with 14 spec Enraging, which is a good thing. At the same time, moving the 3 strike breakpoint up from 10 to 13 puts pressure on you to not take that 3rd spec, which might lower diversity overall.

Mirror of Ice is a horrible horrible skill that needs to die a horrible flaming death. Someone hand me a match.

Healing Burst is an interesting skill, with a lot of potential raw power, and also a lot of nuanced interactions that are not immediately obvious. I'm still playing around with it, and am enjoying the discussion it's generated so far; it's certainly a bit premature to lay down a final verdict on the skill. This is probably the skill most worth talking about in the next few weeks.

Essence Snow · Nov 14, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Let me remind you that certain things simply don't apply the same so splits are needed. To have degen even be remotely viable in PvE makes it massively OP in PvP. Keeping degen in check in PvP=making it worthless in PvE. It is not a one way dynamic for everything. While in certain aspects of the game...yes I'll agree that, it could keep things in check, but for a lot it simply doesn't work that way.

Missing HB · Nov 14, 2010, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I don't really do GvG seriously anymore for a few weeks but , anyway , how many guilds do run coward sins + hexes in GvG ??? As far as i can remember ( and i got the proof today on zquest ) , 3/4 of players still run bsurge + water + stance monks so...

Xiaquin · Nov 14, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

I've taken in everything you've talked about Ensign, and I like what you are saying, but when they are doing targeted updates on PvP, overpowered PvE "candy" will never be touched, because they are already split and can be ignored. How many years have to go by with Shadow Form being completely overpowered because of this? It's not something PvPers rage about, so it doesn't get truly nerfed.

fowlero · Nov 14, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I don't really do GvG seriously anymore for a few weeks but , anyway , how many guilds do run coward sins + hexes in GvG ??? As far as i can remember ( and i got the proof today on zquest ) , 3/4 of players still run bsurge + water + stance monks so...

You must've missed the last monthly then.

People don't run it much in ladder/reguarly in AT's because it's a boring build to play. It was however incredibly powerful so it saw a lot of play in the mAT and sometimes AT's.

drkn · Nov 14, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

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Please...... Roll a melee character and come back to talk to me.

He shouldn't roll a melee, it's not warrior's job to keep the blind off him. He should play monk some more.

Quote:

And if you're worried about RA, the game is not, and should not, be balanced around (random) 4v4. If you're really bad enough that you can't shock/dchop/dblow/kd a BSurge when you are not blind, run Sight Beyond Sight.

While the game's balance shouldn't be based on RA, it's still a viable and playable format for a lot of people, probably much more than GvG and HA due to it's ease of getting into a game. When balancing the game for GvG, the devs mustn't forget about other formats, RA included, and the updates shouldn't break them.
If BSurge is lol meh in GvG, as every team has at two condition removals, it's still an issue to be adressed in other formats.

Quote:

Removing it made it easier to make targeted changes (which can be good!) but also a lot easier to make bad changes (yeah...)

The mechanism of splits is fine here - it's only a tool which may prove useful when balancing one side of the game much better without spoiling the other side. It's the devs, and their use of this tool, that are to blame, not splitting itself.
Don't get me wrong - i'm all into nerfing most of the overpowered, broken builds/skills in PvE, even though i use some myself (imba, SoS, discord, to be exact - same as i loved the Coward! nerf, even though i used to run cowsin in RA). I'd love to see them die, having players forced to play PvE balanced way, killing all speedclears and so on. But it can be done within the mechanics of splits - if AP is overpowered in PvE, but less useful (or useless, or never used... - no idea actually) in PvP, why nerf it in PvP as well? Kill it in PvE, but leave it be in PvP as long as it doesn't cause any problems. The same applies to the other side - MoI overpowered in PvP? Nerf it, but don't touch it in PvE, even though it's useless and no player runs it, cause at best you will nerf the monsters, effectively making PvE easier, while there's no need to.
Splits mechanics lets the devs to balance out both sides of the game accordingly to its gameplay and general rules, but it has to be used well.

Boogz · Nov 14, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

please don't give Mirror of Ice the same horrible death given to Smiter's Boon.

Still Number One · Nov 14, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

please don't give Mirror of Ice the same horrible death given to Smiter's Boon.

The death to Smiter's Boon was one of the best things to happen to this game ever. Giving Smite monks healing power is the stupidest thing A.Net has ever done and the skill needed to not exist, period. So I'm not quite sure how giving a skill the Smiter's Boon treatment is bad, because that would mean the skill had a stupid mechanic and needed to be removed; which giving a damage boost to snares is a stupid mechanic and does need to be removed. So whether they completely change its mechanic or just do away with it completely, the right move would be made.

tealspikes · Nov 14, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

So they choose to nerf Coward instead which isn't even a issue without the 1/2-cast dagger attacks. How many more elites are we gonna see nerfed before they realize what the real problem is???

Ensign · Nov 15, 2010, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I'd love to see Mirror of Ice get the Smiter's Boon treatment.

Also, I'd love to see Smiter's Boon be used as a free slot to insert a genuinely interesting skill into the game.

But these skills were just really bad ideas, and you need to be able to remove really bad ideas.

Karate Jesus · Nov 15, 2010, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

You must've missed the last monthly then.

People don't run it much in ladder/reguarly in AT's because it's a boring build to play. It was however incredibly powerful so it saw a lot of play in the mAT and sometimes AT's.

As a lower-end GvG player, I can attest that this isn't necessarily true.

Hexway saw a lot of play all over the ladder.

ErrantVenture · Nov 15, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Why are all the mouth breathers going apeshit over this change? This update was supposed to do one thing: kill hexes and OP poarty healing. It did that.

Heal party was massive problem, flaggers being able to sit at radar ranger and pump out 125 point party heals uncontested was not good for the game. So it had to go. Fire-and-forget hexes and conditions spam (barbed signet, VoR, empathy, faint, etc) take zero skill to play and are incredibly difficult to counter. Hex builds have always been for shitters who are bad at the game, and any nerf to hexes is an improvement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'd love to see Mirror of Ice get the Smiter's Boon treatment.

I'd honestly like to see this too. With the nerfing of ranger DPS and paragon support skills we (the developers and the PvP community) essentially decided that a character shouldn't be able to have utility and big damage at the same time. A profession should play one role, either that of a utility tool box or of a damage pumper. Mirror of Ice lets water eles have utility and huge damage at the same time and, because of that, it needs to go. I'd rather see its functionality get completely reworked than have the skill sboon'd, but either way it needs to go.

No idea why people are talking about this update killing tombs. People still play tombs?

drkn · Nov 15, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Why are all the mouth breathers going apeshit over this change? This update was supposed to do one thing: kill hexes and OP poarty healing. It did that.

Because after six months since the last update, that's everything it has tried to do (whether it was really achieved is to be confirmed in the following days/weeks). Because after six months, we got 16 skills updated, most of them in a marginal way. Because it's a GvG-oriented update, not even a PvP one, that seems to have ignored other PvP formats. Because, again, an obvious split has been avoided. Because a lot of important broken skills/chains, even in GvG, got ignored so far.

EPO Bot · Nov 15, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

I like the new healing burst. It goes well with selfless spirit and any skill recharge reducing effects.

Aljasha · Nov 15, 2010, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Because after six months since the last update, that's everything it has tried to do (whether it was really achieved is to be confirmed in the following days/weeks). Because after six months, we got 16 skills updated, most of them in a marginal way. Because it's a GvG-oriented update, not even a PvP one, that seems to have ignored other PvP formats. Because, again, an obvious split has been avoided. Because a lot of important broken skills/chains, even in GvG, got ignored so far.

Anyway, GvG got much better because of this update - mission completed.

Splitting skills is not the answer to anything. PvE became the mess it is now by splitting skills and fueling powercreep and build wars. I'd agree that sometimes it is ok to split skills, but it shouldn't be the first option.

Sirius Bsns · Nov 15, 2010, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I've been running Berserker Stance in place of E.Charge to bypass the bs. bb IMS, but hello fast adrenaline gain!

Coast · Nov 15, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

mirror of ice now gives u the same dmg boost when u use fire/air or earth spells that target a foe(no more boost for water spells!

diabiosx · Nov 15, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

is it just me or do you guys think that barbed signet is technically stronger in this GW build, due to the fact that it now has better emanagement, cant be rupted, HP being nerfed which in turn makes that bleeding pressure more powerful even though it can be spammed less.

Aljasha · Nov 15, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

you can spam it about the same as before. you just need to push a button more often. overall gvg got somehow better, because people die due to kills more than flagger pushes.